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Nonlawyer Explainer Thread: On Keeping One's Mouth Shut

It occurs to me that certain private-jet-flying seditionists who continue to yammer on Twitter about their DC excursions provide us with the opportunity to do a little hypo to explore the benefits of silence.

 So let's explore what a hypothetical law enforcement interview *might* look like in this situation. I'm not - I want to make clear - drawing from experience as a lawyer here.

I AM NOT A CRIMINAL LAW ATTORNEY.

Instead, I'm mostly drawing from discussions with my father-in-law.
My father in law is a now-retired homicide cop, and we've had a lot of discussions (especially since I started law school) about criminals and interviews over the years.

So with that in mind, let's look at this hypo.
ALSO - Simplifying for Twitter character counts.

*Knock*
*Door opens*
Agent: Ms [Name]? I'm Agent Smith, and this is Agent Jones. We're with Agency. We'd like to talk to you if you've got a minute.
Ms X: Oh? Is this about that thing at the Capitol?

[Yes, it seems insane but if you're worried about something specific and the cops show up, blurting out something like that is totally a thing that can happen.]
Agent Smith: Yes, ma'am. I don't know if you're aware, but some of the media saw some of your social media stuff, so we got a bunch of phone calls.

[Note: The agents will have seen ALL of her social media and they know she's seen it, but will not be above implying otherwise.]
Agent Smith: Anyway, our boss doesn't really like us to close out a file without at least trying to talk with the person first.

[Note: Deliberately implying that they think the whole thing is nonsense that they want to get rid of and that they're completely sympathetic to her.]
Agent Smith: So if you've got a couple of minutes - do you mind if we come in? It's a little cold out for this kind of thing and anyway I don't want having this conversation on the doorstep to look awkward with the neighbors or anything.
Agent Smith: Thanks. This place is beautiful, have you lived here long? Is there somewhere we can sit down?

Ms X: I don't know if this is something I should be talking to you about. Should I have my lawyer here for this?
Agent Smith: Ma'am, you certainly can if you think you need your lawyer, but we came down because we were hoping to be able to clear this whole thing up before it gets to that point - we'd like to get things taken care of without too much fuss.

[Note: Yes, they can say that.]
[Also: Yes, they can and will respond to that question about the lawyer in ways that convey that insisting on a lawyer will make you look bad in their eyes.]
Ms X: Oh. Are you sure I don't need a lawyer?

Agent Smith: Honestly, ma'am, like I said we're mostly down here because our boss kinda has a stick up-- I mean, he just doesn't really like it if we close something without talking to you. And we don't want to inconvenience you.
Ms X: Oh. I don't know...

Agent Smith: We can always arrange to do this downtown later on if you want. I mean, I don't really think we need to do that, and I was really hoping to get this wrapped up today so I can get back to some of my other cases that involve, y'know, crimes.
[Note: Asking if you need an attorney isn't the same as asking for an attorney. And they can lie about their boss, and hint that they don't think you really did anything wrong.]
Ms X: Oh, well if we can get this taken care of today...

Agent Smith: I mean I can't promise anything, of course - the boss will need to see that we checked the boxes and all that, but I'll certainly do my best. And this seems pretty clear-cut to me, so this shouldn't take long.
Ms X: Oh, well if you'll come this way...

Agent Smith: Thanks.
*sitting down, possibly refreshments, possibly touring house in process*
Agent Smith: OK, so I saw y'all got to fly up to see President Trump give his speech Wednesday in a private plane. That's pretty cool. I ain't never done that. Heck, they make us fly Southwest half the time.
Ms X: We were pretty excited about that.
Agent Smith: I would be too. How do you get something like that set up?

I'm going to close this here, because hopefully the basic point is clear: it's not that hard for someone who sounds sympathetic to get someone to talk.
This isn't a custodial interview. She's not under arrest. They're talking in her house. They haven't even told her she *has* to talk to them.

That means they don't have to read the Miranda warning.
They also don't have to tell her that charges are seriously being contemplated, and they can imply that they think she's done nothing wrong and they want to help her clear things up.
That can be very tempting.

With something like this, where her social media shows that she has no conception she was in the wrong, I think there's a very good chance that would work.
Seriously, if this happens to you some morning (or late evening, but never at a comfortable or convenient time of day), there is only one right answer:

"I'm not going to talk to you without my lawyer."
They will try to make you feel even more uncomfortable if you say that, because they know that there's probably not going to be much of a conversation if your lawyer is there.

Don't fall for it.

Stay silent. Get a lawyer.
Good question.

@HaygoodLaw
@LutherEvers
@greg_doucette
@ASFleischman

Are better positioned to answer than me.
https://t.co/BJDlnjMSuE
For those who have been saying things like "I still don't know anyone" or "I can't afford someone" -

Then just don't talk to the police about it.

More from Mike Dunford

Mike Dunford
Mike Dunford
@questauthority
I went over the dismissal on my stream, but a few thoughts on where things are at:

1: The Notice of Appeal doesn't shock me; I figured Louie would be this dumb.
2: As was the case with the case at the District Court, it doesn't really matter how vigorously Pence defends this.


3: The lack of standing is so spectacularly, glaringly obvious that it doesn't really matter whether Pence raised certain arguments; they will get noticed by the court.
4: That's because federal courts have an independent duty to ensure they have jurisdiction.

5: Standing is a jurisdictional requirement; no standing means no case.
6: The rules for standing are clear and nothing in the opinion dismissing the case was the least bit controversial in any universe except the alternate one inhabited by Louie and the Arizonan cosplayers.

7: "But it's the 5th Circuit" will be raised both by Trumpistians and those who are exceptionally nervous. There is exactly as much reason to be concerned about the 5th as there was the trial court: ie none at all.

So - my expectations:
Given the timeline, I suspect that Louie will be granted an expedited appeal and will lose on an expedited basis. I also expect that he will appeal to SCOTUS and the appeal there will not be expedited.
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Mike Dunford
Mike Dunford
@questauthority
Good afternoon, followers of frivolous performative litigation.

New filing in Orly Tatiz's bonkers attempt to halt the 2nd Impeachment trial. It's a gloriously burning train wreck of mangled formatting and hideous typography.

Let's dig

For those who may have forgotten, this is the case we saw last week - the one where Orly took the 12(b)(6) game to the next level by LITERALLY forgetting to include actual claims in her complaint.

So technically it's still unclear what she's suing over.

And, frankly, it's not like I can talk about the merits of this one because there aren't any. But the sheer stunning insanity of the formatting alone makes this worth a thread.

Even though, honestly, it's not the worst Orly has produced.

For context, the text below comes from the State of Hawaii's 2012 response to a motion for reconsideration in one of the birther cases.

"an inartfully collated, defectively stapled, and misordered collection of pages" is still one of my favorite descriptions of a filing ever.


Just to start with, apparently we're putting the caption on both sides of the (incomplete) line now. Single spaced on one side, double spaced on the other, no less. With everything but the judge's name in caps.
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Mike Dunford
Mike Dunford
@questauthority
You know what?

I *will* without a doubt regret this.

But I'm going to watch Mike Pence read out the last returns before I go to sleep.

Also.

FUCK YEAH, AMERICA!!!!

That was not sarcasm. Hell, I've got Lee damn Greenwood running through my head right now.

We had a no-kidding attempted coup today. One of the two guys who would have benefitted from that coup is standing in the chamber of the House - which was occupied by seditionists hours ago - signing off on his electoral defeat.

I never, in a thousand years, thought I would say this.

But I say thee ye, Michael Pence.
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Mike Dunford
Mike Dunford
@questauthority
Election Litigation Update: DC - the "let's sue the Electoral College" case.

This is a bit surprising, given that as of last time I checked nobody had been served and no appearance had been entered. I suspect it's an effort to make sure the case isn't "pending" on the 6th.


And, sure enough, still no proof of service on ANY defendant, still no appearance from defense counsel. And this is denying the motion for preliminary injunction but does NOT dismiss the case - which is potentially ominous for plaintiff's counsel.


This isn't a "happy judge" kind of first paragraph. Not even a little bit. Nope.


Y'all, this isn't even directed within a few hundred miles of my direction and I sill just instinctively checked to make sure that there's room for me to hide under my desk if I have to - this is a very not happy, very federal, very judge tone.


Also - the judge just outright said there's a bunch of reasons for dismissal. And not in "might be" terms. In definite fact ones. But the case isn't dismissed yet.

If I was plaintiffs counsel, I'd definitely be clearing under my desk right now, and possibly also my underwear.
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Mike Dunford
Mike Dunford
@questauthority
Good morning, post-election frivolous performative litigation followers - we've got another new filing in Seditionists v 117th Congress et al.

It's yet another motion for a Temporary Restraining Order - making it the 3rd in 3 days.

And it's a

Now, you'd think that if you kept throwing 'emergency' paperwork at the court and the court kept saying nothing in reply that you might want to take some time and figure out what you're doing wrong, but nope. Not these buffoons.

They're still not within 50 miles of complying with Fed R Civ P 65 - and my guess is that this judge might view that as entirely a "them" problem which the court has no obligation to explain.

So they're still stuck at Step 1.

But that's honestly the least of their issues.

They have, apparently in lieu of attempting to comply with Rule 65, put "ORAL HEARING REQUESTED" in all caps right after the heading.

I'm not a litigator but I don't think that's a recognized alternative to attempting to provide notice to the adverse party.


They want to "preserve the status quo" by placing two of the three branches of government in a state of "stewardship." That's...

...unique.
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If it doesn,t make sense...
something else is going on.....

#xrp
#xrpcommmunity

Expand your thinking

This thread is updated and can be approached from multiple perspectives.
That is how big Platform 2020 is
#TheGreatAwakeningWorldwide

Connect the dotes
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the strange reality of strict calvinism is that it makes a mockery of God's claims to hate, abhort, or even be theoretically opposed to evil

the calvinist solution to the problem of evil, which I have *literally heard from the lips of a faithful well-catechized Presbyterian* is, "well, all that happens is God's will, and to do His will is to manifest goodness, and goodness gives God joy, so God must rejoice in evil"

The hypothetical I gave was, "Suppose that there was a city of Christians, and a bomber flew over the city, and the guy at the controls tripped and accidentally armed and dropped a bomb, and wiped out the city: is that God's will? What does God think of that?"

His answer in addition to the above cited the Flood, Soddom, and Nineveh.

Because we all know that God's response to the Flood was, "I REALLY liked that, it was AWESOME, it satisfied my will and purposes to obliterate my creation!"

Once you have drunk the "but muh sovrintee" Kool-Aid you cannot escape the argument that literally everything that happens is not just God's will in some philosophical sense, but His will in the sense of "things that bring him pleasure."
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Thirumalai Murugan Kovil
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which is said to be created by Agasthiyar. It is believed that kannaki of
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Om Muruga
Muruganukku Harohara
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